Breaking bread: what’s wrong with wheat?

WEBVTT

1
00:00:12.590 --> 00:00:16.129
Nadia: Right. Hello, everyone. Good evening.

2
00:00:16.610 --> 00:00:22.469
Nadia: So just to have a couple of housekeeping notes

3
00:00:22.660 --> 00:00:38.569
Nadia: for the webinar today, the audience members, microphones and cameras will be off and will remain so throughout. And please note that this event is being recorded, and you're all welcome to use the QA. Function throughout the event to put questions to our panel.

4
00:00:38.770 --> 00:00:46.060
Nadia: and you don't have to wait until the Q. And a section of the event. The chat and resent functions are currently disabled.

5
00:00:46.790 --> 00:01:03.340
Nadia: So today's webinar breaking bread. What's wrong with wheat is a webinar organized by Cambridge global food security. It is part of the series of food for thought panel events. And please check the global food security website for all our past events.

6
00:01:03.960 --> 00:01:07.200
Nadia: Great to start. Our discussion today.

7
00:01:07.630 --> 00:01:21.440
Nadia: I'll let you introduce the topic. So great has been consumed by humans for thousands of years, and has always played a major role throughout history and across different countries and cultures for years it was the role.

8
00:01:21.590 --> 00:01:34.990
Nadia: It was the simple product of flour, yeast, and water, but in the past 60 or so years both flour and bread have gone through such methods of ultra processing that has led to make people intolerant or allergic to it.

9
00:01:36.180 --> 00:01:49.500
Nadia: and with the climate changing drastically in many parts of the world wheat is no longer a viable crop. Should we reclaim bread as it was, and diversify at the same time to bring resilience and more nutrition to people's diets.

10
00:01:49.600 --> 00:02:15.640
Nadia: This event will consider the history, economic health, and environmental impact of the staple food. Thanks to our panel of experts today. So I'm Nadia Rasmin. I'm a plant biologist from the Saintsbury Lab at Cambridge University, and I'm interested in improving the food system through utilization of gotten Cross, and today in our panelists, I first would like to introduce Professor Martin Jones.

11
00:02:15.920 --> 00:02:28.650
Nadia: He is an emeritus. George Pitt Rivers, Professor of Archaeological Science University of Cambridge. Martin works on Archibotany and archogenetics. In the context of the broader archaeology of food.

12
00:02:28.990 --> 00:02:33.010
Nadia: His current research interests include the spread of farming across Asia.

13
00:02:33.170 --> 00:02:41.639
Nadia: food sharing in the Apple Paleolithic and the development of agrarian societies and their food economies in later prehistory and historic periods.

14
00:02:42.520 --> 00:02:45.180
Nadia: The second panel is is Dr. Phil Howell.

15
00:02:45.270 --> 00:03:05.040
Nadia: who is the head of breeding in Nayab. Since joining Nyab from the commercial sector in 2,007, Phil has worked on breeding and pre-breeding projects, including Nyab's flagship, wheat resynthesis program, a multi-partner wheat, pre-breeding initiatives and the development of wheat magic populations

16
00:03:05.230 --> 00:03:18.579
Nadia: Phil is now leading and managing naep's portfolio of breeding and pre-breeding work across a range of broad acre, arable crops, including cereals, legumes, specialty oil seeds, and others.

17
00:03:18.800 --> 00:03:36.699
Nadia: This is often collaborative work with industry, partners from greeting companies and users in other parts of the supply chain. Field's input forms a significant part of Naep's work to raise the profile of domestic plant protein production through legum crops and other protein sources.

18
00:03:38.030 --> 00:03:49.320
Nadia: Our third panelist is Professor Shila Jar Panel. She is a professor of regional transformation and economic security in the Department of Land Economy University of Cambridge.

19
00:03:50.090 --> 00:04:04.470
Nadia: Challenger research interests include institutional reform and Collective Action, food production and Rural Development, Gender norms and Gender gaps in development interventions and provision of public goods and the role of partnerships.

20
00:04:04.870 --> 00:04:13.449
Nadia: She has been a lead investigator or co-investigator on several multi-million pound research projects funded by Ukri

21
00:04:13.560 --> 00:04:17.860
Nadia: Asean, Ugc. UKIE. RI. And Diffit.

22
00:04:18.079 --> 00:04:25.939
Nadia: She was also a consultant on inequality and Rural development with Oxfam, an evidence-based policy with the World Bank.

23
00:04:26.030 --> 00:04:29.530
and was the Social science expert on agriculture.

24
00:04:29.700 --> 00:04:36.570
Nadia: gender, and an author of the European Report on Development on Fragility in Africa, 2,008, 2,009.

25
00:04:37.740 --> 00:04:56.220
Nadia: Last of our panelists is Dr. Alexa Bellows. She is the research fellow of cool health benefits of sustainable food system. University of Edinburgh. Alexa is a nutritional epidemiologist whose research, whose research focuses on improving food systems to be healthier and more sustainable.

26
00:04:56.560 --> 00:05:02.940
Nadia: She is interested in developing metrics for diets and food systems to facilitate policy change.

27
00:05:03.250 --> 00:05:17.209
Nadia: In 2022. She was awarded an Immana post-doctoral research fellowship, to develop a metric, to measure sustainability of food environments and will be piloting the metric in India and Scotland.

28
00:05:17.980 --> 00:05:21.020
Nadia: Right? So to start.

29
00:05:22.840 --> 00:05:24.420
Nadia: I'll just

30
00:05:27.700 --> 00:05:29.850
Nadia: so we would

31
00:05:30.140 --> 00:05:31.780
Nadia: start our discussion.

32
00:05:32.160 --> 00:05:40.739
Nadia: By allowing the panel to answer the question, what is wrong with wheat?

33
00:05:41.090 --> 00:05:43.510
Nadia: And I would like to start with Martin.

34
00:05:45.480 --> 00:05:55.510
Martin Jones: All right. Thank you, Nadia. Now, at the moment, over half the energy in the human food chain comes from 4 plants.

35
00:05:55.700 --> 00:05:59.139
Martin Jones: and one of those plants is is bread, wheat.

36
00:06:00.080 --> 00:06:04.839
Martin Jones: and it's very efficient at doing. It's very efficient at doing

37
00:06:05.200 --> 00:06:16.209
Martin Jones: one particular thing. It's very efficient at creating a very large number of calories from a particular area of ground, and it serves us extremely well

38
00:06:16.230 --> 00:06:26.849
Martin Jones: that process. And and in a commercial monetary world that has proven effective. If we look in history at how long

39
00:06:27.120 --> 00:06:37.980
Martin Jones: that kind of human's been feeding in that way. It's a history of about 1,500 years in about 1,500 years that the world has shrunk down

40
00:06:38.150 --> 00:06:49.880
Martin Jones: onto a small number of very high yielding plants and worked in that way. which is quite interesting to me as an archaeologist, because the actual plant bred wheat

41
00:06:50.730 --> 00:06:55.610
Martin Jones: is about 9,000 years old. and agriculture is about 12,000 years old.

42
00:06:55.660 --> 00:06:59.959
Martin Jones: So for a long time, when red weed was around.

43
00:07:00.060 --> 00:07:02.749
Martin Jones: It! It didn't have fair.

44
00:07:02.880 --> 00:07:07.909
Martin Jones: It didn't have that. It wasn't dealt with in the same way. And of course we don't want to go back

45
00:07:08.010 --> 00:07:21.950
Martin Jones: to a past that's no longer relevant. But we also want to be aware of what the needs and possibilities of today's world are, which is different from the world in which these 4 plants became dominant.

46
00:07:22.020 --> 00:07:24.150
Martin Jones: and I think, for a number of reasons.

47
00:07:24.200 --> 00:07:27.049
Martin Jones: We don't need just to look

48
00:07:27.510 --> 00:07:31.300
Martin Jones: at the big crops that we've been looking at in

49
00:07:31.350 --> 00:07:33.779
Martin Jones: what for me, is an archaeologist's recent history.

50
00:07:36.920 --> 00:07:49.110
Nadia: Thanks, Martin. That was, yeah, really succinct and surprising how we look at like the different sections of the events historically. I'd like to now tend to fill.

51
00:07:54.080 --> 00:08:11.009
Phil Howell: No, this mistake. I've been reading. Wait for the 25 years I've been baking bread for for over 20 years. So this topic is obviously dear to my heart. And I don't think fundamentally there is that much wrong with wait.

52
00:08:11.270 --> 00:08:29.570
Phil Howell: we we know about this much maligned, surely with bread process, this industrial bread process which was devised in 1961. And really it was a response to postwar austerity. It it allowed cheap food, it allowed a reduction in import, so the Uk became much more self sufficient.

53
00:08:30.050 --> 00:08:39.759
Phil Howell: and I guess we, as society, probably trying, probably guilty of trying to make wait all things to all people. And it's become a victim of its own success.

54
00:08:40.940 --> 00:08:57.070
Phil Howell: here at Nyab. We're just up the road from the University. We do a lot of work trying to increase. It's genetic diversity and and stop the the gene pool from becoming stagnant, if you like. We've had large project in this pre breeding space to do that.

55
00:08:57.260 --> 00:09:08.730
Phil Howell: But having said that we need to be much more open to growing and processing up a whole range of of different grains. So just thinking where the Uk 70, 70, 75% of our arable area

56
00:09:08.880 --> 00:09:24.619
Phil Howell: is occupied by just 3 crops, weak barley, and all seed rape. And that's that's clearly unsustainable for for a whole range of reasons. And we were. We were asked by Defra to carry out a review of unutilized crops, and and we're very much at interested in in diversifying

57
00:09:24.820 --> 00:09:35.070
Phil Howell: both food systems and agricultural systems, and in support of that. And of course, if we do change that, it will have ramifications to both our food and our farming systems.

58
00:09:35.210 --> 00:09:54.329
Phil Howell: More than half of the wheat we grow in the Uk. And I'm sorry it's a global food security meeting. But I'm speaking from the Uk perspective over half the week we grow in the Uk is destined for animal feed and if demographic changes continue for for a host of good reasons.

59
00:09:54.350 --> 00:10:08.809
Phil Howell: We will be consuming less animals in the future. Therefore we may need to grow less wheat and the wheat that we do grow will be targeted more on food than feed so that that's a mind shift.

60
00:10:08.970 --> 00:10:15.820
Phil Howell: And of course, wait is is very hungry crop in terms of energy production. So

61
00:10:16.300 --> 00:10:33.639
Phil Howell: most of the carbon footprint that's associated with a loaf of bread doesn't come from switching the oven off. It comes from manufacturing the the nitrogen fertilizer that's used to increase productivity and increase the the protein content of the grain.

62
00:10:33.740 --> 00:10:42.449
Phil Howell: So we kind of need to wean ourselves off our addiction to nitrogen fertilizer in the future. To have sustainable food systems.

63
00:10:42.690 --> 00:11:01.380
Phil Howell: and the industry is is keen to support that. So the Nfu have a a bold target of net 0 emissions across the agricultural sector by 2040. I've been asked to join a panel down there in a couple of weeks to discuss how we can maintain

64
00:11:01.600 --> 00:11:06.760
Phil Howell: current bread, making performance with lower levels of nitrogen, and and

65
00:11:06.790 --> 00:11:10.430
Phil Howell: there probably won't be any easy answers to that

66
00:11:10.950 --> 00:11:26.339
Phil Howell: But at the moment we need grain nitrogen to be at 13% grain protein to be at 13 or higher, to be sure of getting good performance through current industrial bread, making processes. So something needs to change, to reduce our nitrogen requirement to do that.

67
00:11:26.980 --> 00:11:29.890
Phil Howell: So in a nutshell, I don't think.

68
00:11:30.140 --> 00:11:31.320
Phil Howell: and

69
00:11:31.470 --> 00:11:39.569
Phil Howell: there are any simple answers. Wheat can can be a fine food and a fine crop, but we shouldn't make it the only one.

70
00:11:41.390 --> 00:11:46.009
Nadia: Thanks, Phil. Like to now open it to Shalija.

71
00:11:46.610 --> 00:12:04.810
Shailaja Fennell: Thank you, Nadia. So it's not what is wrong with wheat. I think it's what human beings are doing with wheat. That is the problem. So let's not. The the non human is not at fault. It's it's us. I think. Another fact that we'd like to think about is

72
00:12:04.820 --> 00:12:13.750
Shailaja Fennell: the lack of diversity in terms of our serial intake. and that is actually just 30 years old.

73
00:12:13.890 --> 00:12:28.140
Shailaja Fennell: So at the moment up to 80% of the typical cereal consumption that we have globally. It's an average. Of course, it would will vary, but an average in terms of global markets is between rice, wheat, and maize

74
00:12:28.140 --> 00:12:45.910
Shailaja Fennell: with wheat, rice and made in that order. So the problem with wheat is also a problem for rice in terms of what we're consuming or maize is the fact that we eat super refined products. I'll leave more of that to Alexa, because it's her area of expertise. But what does this mean? It means that the nature of the food markets we have

75
00:12:46.010 --> 00:12:57.870
Shailaja Fennell: is is part of the problem. There's a whole futures market in food in these crops. All those who produce for their global market the supply chains want to ensure this.

76
00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:10.539
Shailaja Fennell: They would prefer uniformity, homogeneity, which means you go for a single variety. It tastes the same. It's a bit boring, and that is bad for us both in terms of

77
00:13:10.590 --> 00:13:13.720
Shailaja Fennell: what we eat is not what we need in terms of nutrition.

78
00:13:13.800 --> 00:13:27.889
Shailaja Fennell: And so what we're ending up with, as Martin said, is, we have a supercharged carbohydrate intake, which is actually bad for us because it is the onset of adult diabetes. So the work I do

79
00:13:27.910 --> 00:13:29.060
Shailaja Fennell: and

80
00:13:29.350 --> 00:13:43.070
Shailaja Fennell: the areas that we work in in, in Africa, in, in as well as South and Southeast Asia, there are numerous other cereals that are eaten, and it might just be quite useful to do a global shift and try and understand. So

81
00:13:43.070 --> 00:14:05.899
Shailaja Fennell: the work that we did in Tigris was all around, some of them all forgotten crops or underutilized millets. They were the majority crop, and of course Martin has done work historically on that. So it's a very particular moment where we're looking at what is wrong with wheat. I think what we need to understand is our food systems approach is fundamentally broken, and we need to reconsider that.

82
00:14:06.340 --> 00:14:12.089
Shailaja Fennell: The third point I want to make in terms of the stories. It's how we consume wheat, not just what we do.

83
00:14:12.210 --> 00:14:24.659
Shailaja Fennell: The story of eating cereals is far better for the human gut. If we talk about fermented foods, they break it down in terms of particularly and the ability to absorb iron. That's an issue.

84
00:14:24.800 --> 00:14:31.850
Shailaja Fennell: There's a particular rise, of course, in terms of gut diseases. And that's interesting to me because it says.

85
00:14:31.860 --> 00:14:36.040
Shailaja Fennell: Well, what's happening? The economic models are pushing us in one direction, the human body.

86
00:14:36.100 --> 00:14:52.080
Shailaja Fennell: The mouth is going much faster than the stomach, and the stomach is not able to absorb these things. So, in addition to us, generating human-made diseases like diabetes from our lifestyle. We're also creating huge number of new allergens which are increasing because of the way in which we're eating.

87
00:14:52.280 --> 00:15:13.700
Shailaja Fennell: And some of this has to do in where we put wheat. Why, we putting into thickness for babies, we shouldn't be having it before the age of one. Wheat creates, you know, a lot of that generation. And I say this because I'm I'm Tamil. I'm I'm a rice-basing community. We don't eat wheat till we go to school, you know it's not commonplace. So there are 3 different economic reasons there. Thank you, Nadi.

88
00:15:16.350 --> 00:15:33.889
Nadia: thanks shyly. And I think that you know, fits in really well with the expertise of Alexa. Especially on yeah. The different allergens and complexities, health complexities. Yep.

89
00:15:39.760 --> 00:15:50.069
Alexa Bellows: I think I'm next. So from a nutritional standpoint for the majority of people there's nothing wrong with consuming wheat, I think this echoes a bit of what the other panelists have said.

90
00:15:50.340 --> 00:15:57.689
Alexa Bellows: and but as a nutritional epidemiologist, I think one of the biggest issues with wheat is the way in which we consume it.

91
00:15:57.730 --> 00:15:59.809
The majority of wheat that we consume.

92
00:16:00.040 --> 00:16:04.469
Alexa Bellows: Is refined where the germ and the brand have been stripped away.

93
00:16:04.490 --> 00:16:08.059
Alexa Bellows: and these are the components of the plant that

94
00:16:08.460 --> 00:16:13.260
Alexa Bellows: have the majority of fiber and vitamins and minerals which would make wheat a

95
00:16:13.410 --> 00:16:15.240
Alexa Bellows: significantly healthier

96
00:16:15.350 --> 00:16:17.079
crop for us to be consuming

97
00:16:17.580 --> 00:16:39.010
Alexa Bellows: the whole whole grain consumption has been associated with the decreased risk of many chronic diseases, such as diabetes, cardiovascular disease, and certain cancers. But in the Uk, for example, whole grain intake is not achieved by the majority of adults and children. Or the recommended intake of whole grains is not achieved by adults and children.

98
00:16:39.100 --> 00:16:44.670
Alexa Bellows: There is a small but growing prevalence of people who suffer from celiac disease and Google

99
00:16:44.710 --> 00:16:51.860
Alexa Bellows: and tolerance where consuming gluten, a component of wheat and other grains is not recommended.

100
00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:53.970
Alexa Bellows: And I know, for so

101
00:16:54.250 --> 00:17:13.680
Alexa Bellows: disease there is a significant genetic component. But for those gluten intolerance there's been some evidence that the ultra processing of bread and industrial process that we used to create bread have exacerbated these symptoms, and slow fermentation and more artisanal bread could actually help relieve some of these symptoms for people who suffer from gluten intolerance.

102
00:17:13.900 --> 00:17:20.069
Alexa Bellows: and II, and also for slow fermentation in that process it helps

103
00:17:20.160 --> 00:17:35.520
Alexa Bellows: make some nutrients and minerals more bio availability Bioavail Bioavail bio bioavailable to to the consumer. So, for example, if you're eating a whole grain bread

104
00:17:35.740 --> 00:17:44.219
Alexa Bellows: if it's slowly, if there's slow fermentation, you get. You have more bioavail minerals from the germ and the brand.

105
00:17:44.460 --> 00:17:45.550
And so

106
00:17:47.000 --> 00:17:49.069
Alexa Bellows: analysts have said Diversity.

107
00:17:49.130 --> 00:17:56.930
Alexa Bellows: these older when we think about our diet. So I'm not gonna say there's anything wrong with consuming wheat consuming it in a

108
00:17:56.950 --> 00:18:05.959
Alexa Bellows: like whole green way. But I do think that just generally we can. If we diversify diets, it'll be better for

109
00:18:06.220 --> 00:18:07.180
our health.

110
00:18:10.420 --> 00:18:21.470
Nadia: Thank you, Alexa. I think, like there are a couple of like common themes that we've discussed, which is one of it is the diversification of the crops that we have.

111
00:18:21.480 --> 00:18:26.050
Nadia: So now we are opening the Q. And a session

112
00:18:26.080 --> 00:18:27.869
Nadia: gave the audience

113
00:18:27.960 --> 00:18:32.700
Nadia: has, or any audience members that have question, please.

114
00:18:33.010 --> 00:18:37.730
Nadia: Oscar, we through the Q. And A. Box.

115
00:18:40.130 --> 00:18:44.810
Nadia: if not, I can. I have one question

116
00:18:44.860 --> 00:18:46.360
Nadia: about

117
00:18:46.580 --> 00:18:54.510
Nadia: with greeting pretty mentioned. So now we know that what you need to diversify our food with a lot of

118
00:18:54.970 --> 00:19:03.330
Nadia: other grains. But we, as Phil had already mentioned, that had been an ongoing wheat breeding programs.

119
00:19:03.850 --> 00:19:08.019
Nadia: So should we breed our current weep

120
00:19:08.080 --> 00:19:26.059
Nadia: to be the better version of wheat or should we actually also have a dedicated breeding program for all this neglected, underutilized cereals, too, at the same time. Or, yeah, how do you see it?

121
00:19:26.370 --> 00:19:31.260
Phil Howell: Can I be greedy and say we should have both. So

122
00:19:31.420 --> 00:19:58.369
Phil Howell: yeah, we. So there's a constant need to to improve crops to make them more climate resilient to keep pace with diseases, diseases, a constantly evolving pest of diseases to overcome the the resistance. That that may be there genetically. We're all keen to to reduce pesticide inputs and fertilizer inputs as much as possible.

123
00:19:58.400 --> 00:20:08.610
Phil Howell: So it's it's more incumbent on the the varieties that we just produce to do more. The heavy lifting we've we've become too reliant on on chemist chemistry, doing some of the work

124
00:20:08.790 --> 00:20:17.610
Phil Howell: the biology should be doing and we need to look after our soils. So is a really precious resource. So we, we need to find ways to

125
00:20:18.230 --> 00:20:28.240
Phil Howell: to make wheat better genetically, and also to to grow it in a manner that's that's kinder to to the souls of the environment, to everything around it.

126
00:20:28.610 --> 00:20:34.020
Phil Howell: And that's that's that's true of all of these other crops. So

127
00:20:34.040 --> 00:20:39.099
Phil Howell: an embarrassingly high proportion of the research budget that goes on crops.

128
00:20:39.490 --> 00:20:46.649
Phil Howell: Again, from my UK. Perspective goes on. Goes on, wait. So

129
00:20:46.870 --> 00:20:51.550
Phil Howell: there should be some fairly low hanging fruit in terms of

130
00:20:51.850 --> 00:20:57.139
Phil Howell: the other crops. Then catching up in terms of productivity and nutritional traits and

131
00:20:57.360 --> 00:21:14.289
Phil Howell: and this sort of thing. So so yes, we, we still need to to keep improving weight. But we also need to invest in in these other things. So I mentioned we. We were asked by Defra to run a review of underutilized crops, and we tried to think of all the different perspectives in which

132
00:21:14.560 --> 00:21:30.640
Phil Howell: you could. You could wait these crops. So we looked at environmental impact. We looked at. Do you need to invest in special equipment to grow, grow these crops, so can you use it up to equipment? This sort of thing? And and the winners in in terms of grains were things like

133
00:21:31.320 --> 00:21:39.509
Phil Howell: why? And Tritika Lee, which can do well in in much lower input situations and are much more marginal soils.

134
00:21:39.730 --> 00:21:49.309
Phil Howell: we may see a situation due to climate change. Where we grow grain maize instead of growing, feed wheat for for animal feed, or

135
00:21:49.380 --> 00:21:58.849
Phil Howell: we actually grow durum weight in the Uk instead of instead of bread, wheat, and then we don't have to import doom for pasta

136
00:21:59.500 --> 00:22:12.939
Phil Howell: a crop which I'm sure Martin can comment on will be naked barley. We used to eat a lot of barley in in our past, and in some parts of the world we still do. It's a very healthy grain. It delivers minerals, delivers soluble fiber

137
00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:21.629
Phil Howell: and then the alternatives. So things like bug wheat. I know some food companies are looking at. It's gluten free, but it can do some of the things that gluten does

138
00:22:21.900 --> 00:22:24.070
Phil Howell: in your thickness.

139
00:22:24.090 --> 00:22:28.640
Phil Howell: that that babies shouldn't have before they want, for example,

140
00:22:28.670 --> 00:22:31.160
Phil Howell: quinoa, father bean, chick, p.

141
00:22:31.320 --> 00:22:35.899
Phil Howell: We just need to to be much more open to to using different things.

142
00:22:36.190 --> 00:22:44.769
Phil Howell: but we need to improve those and and make make them in a way that it's. You know it's it's possible to grow them well and and get good yields

143
00:22:44.920 --> 00:22:46.520
Phil Howell: and sustainable use

144
00:22:47.470 --> 00:22:58.579
Martin Jones: could I pick up on that. Now. There, if I may pick Phil's brain a bit on this, because I've I've had the privilege of working with Niagara, Jessis, for

145
00:22:58.630 --> 00:23:03.520
Martin Jones: for, you know, quarter century or so. And what I sense is, the big change is when.

146
00:23:03.570 --> 00:23:17.479
Martin Jones: when when I first started working with Phil's colleagues, if if I was working with something like wheat or barley. there's this, there's this fabulous set of knowledge, and we could kind of come in and hang on their coattails.

147
00:23:17.610 --> 00:23:23.980
Martin Jones: For historical, archaeological reasons we happen to be interested in this this Millip called panicum.

148
00:23:24.180 --> 00:23:32.600
Martin Jones: and at that stage, 25 years ago our colleagues in Nyobi said, Well, good luck to you! But you know, if you really must do this crazy crop.

149
00:23:32.710 --> 00:23:37.550
Martin Jones: and and there wasn't a a gene

150
00:23:38.980 --> 00:23:40.709
Martin Jones: the thing been done.

151
00:23:40.960 --> 00:23:48.429
Martin Jones: I'm just how much has changed over the last 25 years. So 25 years ago, there's just a handful

152
00:23:48.930 --> 00:24:06.549
Martin Jones: of crops in which we had invested enormously in terms of genetic knowledge. And so we could. I go on a beaten program. And now I mean, there are whole genomes, if not of broomcorn, but of citario foxtail minute. There's whole genomes as as the the startup cost of

153
00:24:06.570 --> 00:24:09.000
Martin Jones: of of working on a new crop.

154
00:24:09.130 --> 00:24:29.519
Martin Jones: Is, is so much less that the whole game has changed, and the number of the crops that Phil just mentioned 25 years ago, there just wasn't the kind of genetic platform to get going on it. But but am I right, Phil, in in the in the game has changed dramatically. And so the question of looking at other crops apart from wheat

155
00:24:29.600 --> 00:24:31.460
Martin Jones: has different answers now

156
00:24:31.730 --> 00:24:33.440
Martin Jones: from from

157
00:24:33.460 --> 00:24:35.390
Martin Jones: from in the recent past.

158
00:24:35.530 --> 00:24:52.290
Phil Howell: Absolutely. And that that's a lot of this is, is kind of cost driven and technology driven, so that the the cost of sequencing genomes has plummeted enormously since I mean the the the Human Genome project was called the Next Space Race, almost

159
00:24:52.590 --> 00:25:04.939
Phil Howell: and the the genome of wheat is is 5 times bigger than that's been done, and most crops are much simpler than wheat. So so on a on a cost basis, it's it's got much cheaper. The technology has improved.

160
00:25:04.950 --> 00:25:13.260
Phil Howell: But of course you don't. You don't need these bells and whistles. Mankind has been breeding and selecting crops for us, you know.

161
00:25:13.280 --> 00:25:16.659
Phil Howell: So what did you say? 9,000 12,000 years?

162
00:25:16.680 --> 00:25:34.020
Phil Howell: So these things can hasten crop improvement massively. But you you don't need you don't need these investments and technology necessarily to start a breeding program. You just need. You need variation, and you need the skills to be able to to spot

163
00:25:34.080 --> 00:25:38.960
Phil Howell: what's better than something else, and then and then take that on to to the next generation.

164
00:25:39.400 --> 00:25:43.230
Nadia: And I'm guessing, because of the climate change, the

165
00:25:43.300 --> 00:25:45.300
Nadia: unpredictable weather, that

166
00:25:45.580 --> 00:26:05.250
Nadia: it's somehow force us to actually look for other options around, too, and that's how we sort of look back to the history. Why, we've been confused before. To continue, we have a question from amber silk from Twinty College.

167
00:26:05.430 --> 00:26:18.990
Nadia: It's addressed to Shalaja. So you mentioned that producers have an interest in us consuming a homogeneous diet. Why is this? And is this related to the cost of production.

168
00:26:19.270 --> 00:26:33.359
Shailaja Fennell: Thank you. Amber. Thank you, Nadia. I meant homogeneity in selling. So, for example, let me give you the example of the Cavendish banana we grew set. There are lots of varieties of bananas that exist. One was bread

169
00:26:33.360 --> 00:26:51.970
Shailaja Fennell: mit ctl, and it has a particular shape. It has a particular curve, and that's what the EU will allow as importing. And this has to do with prescription of products. Sometimes it's related to food safety, but sometimes it's related to stacking supermarkets. Find it easier to have uniform crops. So you have only one type of banana.

170
00:26:52.210 --> 00:27:04.709
Shailaja Fennell: Similarly, in terms of processing of other products. If you're processing wheats of different type, or you're going from wheats to millet, your processing machine will have to have different grades of rollers. It can't simply move from one to the other.

171
00:27:04.890 --> 00:27:21.730
Shailaja Fennell: and therefore, in terms of reducing the cost from the field to the consumer's plate. At every level the economic logic is reduced the unit cost of production. So it's not a homogeneous diet so much as homogeneity of products that will then go into your supermarket basket.

172
00:27:22.170 --> 00:27:22.970
Shailaja Fennell: Thank you.

173
00:27:25.080 --> 00:27:30.490
Nadia: Thank you, Shelley, Joe. and we have another question from the audience. Laura Valli

174
00:27:30.650 --> 00:27:56.979
Nadia: asked, what are the main obstacles to ingesting more whole grains? Is it reluctance on the consumer's part? Or is it is the industry not ready to work with whole grains? We know that that'd be beneficial to both the human health and the environment. And I think I'll address this question to Alexa. Like for the I guess the this whole grain versus refined wheat, till in yeah.

175
00:27:57.830 --> 00:28:00.229
Nadia: the effects, then the impacts of it. Yeah.

176
00:28:00.850 --> 00:28:27.529
Alexa Bellows: so I do think as with everything, it's also very context specific. So II don't wanna over generalize it and say, these are the main barriers everywhere. But I know that some barriers from a consumer perspective is that consumers aren't used to like consuming whole grains. They, a lot of consumers mostly have consumed for fine grains their entire life, and so the taste is different, or the texture might be different.

177
00:28:27.790 --> 00:28:33.730
Alexa Bellows: and then, from a cooking perspective, it takes a lot longer to cook most home whole grains. And so

178
00:28:33.760 --> 00:28:36.000
if you are someone who

179
00:28:36.480 --> 00:28:39.090
Alexa Bellows: has it, a lot of time constraints.

180
00:28:39.430 --> 00:29:04.679
Alexa Bellows: I you know there has been some studies that have looked at one of the barriers would be poor experience with cooking of whole grains, and then people not wanting to buy them again. But II always hate saying that it's a consumer. It's like on the consumer that they should be consuming, or they should be. It's their fault that they're not consuming enough.

181
00:29:04.690 --> 00:29:06.490
Alexa Bellows: I do think that

182
00:29:06.580 --> 00:29:19.880
Alexa Bellows: the industry has a large role to play in offering whole grains at an affordable price to people a lot of times. Whole grain products are more expensive than the refined products, and

183
00:29:20.290 --> 00:29:23.360
Alexa Bellows: you know this is partly due to what was just discussed about

184
00:29:23.460 --> 00:29:33.349
Alexa Bellows: it's just cheaper for them, I think, to produce refined products. I also think you can market whole grains of these healthier options, and

185
00:29:33.730 --> 00:29:36.280
Alexa Bellows: then they end up being

186
00:29:36.370 --> 00:29:42.659
Alexa Bellows: for like high end consumers. And II think that we should make whole grains more accessible to everyone.

187
00:29:43.280 --> 00:29:50.930
Nadia: thanks. So, yeah, that yeah, it's it's kind of strange that something that is more processed. It's like, which

188
00:29:51.040 --> 00:30:03.770
Nadia: possibly require a lot more money and cost to to do it would be cheaper than one that's like, not as processed. But then we have another question

189
00:30:03.830 --> 00:30:12.670
Nadia: that's following the previous one, as we shift from refined wheat to whole Grails? How will farmers, both those farming wheat

190
00:30:12.770 --> 00:30:15.329
Nadia: and animals, be impacted?

191
00:30:16.340 --> 00:30:18.160
Nadia: So

192
00:30:18.570 --> 00:30:27.090
Nadia: seeing this might be fulfill, perhaps how would the change

193
00:30:27.260 --> 00:30:30.950
Nadia: of Oh, maybe, Charlie, Jack.

194
00:30:31.030 --> 00:30:53.649
Shailaja Fennell: yeah, I'm I'm happy to take it. But, Phil, please do come in. I mean the current project we're doing with with with another project looking at the peatlands. It's a different project. But the same narrative. What do farmers grow, and why do they grow it? And it would equally true be true in other parts of the world. So the puzzle that Alexa raised. I'd like to go there and then go forward. It is

195
00:30:53.650 --> 00:31:06.799
Shailaja Fennell: bizarre that whole grains are more expensive to produce. The argument makes no sense in terms of the logic of production. You produce. You then process and the processing cost has to be imputed. And then we sell.

196
00:31:06.960 --> 00:31:34.519
Shailaja Fennell: That problem happens because the nature of supply chains you want to reduce the cost. So you buy huge bulk you buy in forward markets. You make farmers sell cheap. And they sell cheap because it's assured, not because they're being exploited, but selling cheap in large bulk gives you your returns, and you want to cover your costs, whereas batch production or artisanal production. You need lots of purchasers and lots of purchasers is more risky because you don't know what's gonna happen. So you go for a built bulk sale.

197
00:31:34.570 --> 00:31:40.259
Shailaja Fennell: And that is a problem. It is entirely possible to process all

198
00:31:40.360 --> 00:31:41.370
Shailaja Fennell: crops

199
00:31:41.550 --> 00:32:04.009
Shailaja Fennell: in their whole forms, including bananas and wheat. We just need to package differently. This doesn't mean more packaging. It is done in gunny sacks before. It's just returning to methods that allowed us to keep the integrity of that particular commodity. So that's the first. It is the way in which we produce. And because scale gives unit cost reduction, we just get completely

200
00:32:04.060 --> 00:32:14.480
Shailaja Fennell: channel. It's like we have tunnel vision. We think only this way, because entire costing procedure works that way. It is expensive to break, and we'll have to think of the sunk costs of that because of one time. Change

201
00:32:14.740 --> 00:32:35.299
Shailaja Fennell: in relation to the question of what will happen. Well, farmers will sell whole grains, and they will package it differently, but you have to price it so that their costs are taken into account. It is not going to make a difference. In fact, it will be better in terms of whole grains being used, because all the energy. And there's a huge energy in processing of all cereals

202
00:32:35.780 --> 00:32:54.640
Shailaja Fennell: in terms of the energy use in the machines in terms of the carbon emissions in terms of the carbon miles of transporting these things, it will be far better to operate in whole products across the agricultural chain, including in cereal crops, so it is not going to affect farmers in terms of their costs.

203
00:32:54.660 --> 00:32:59.799
Shailaja Fennell: In fact, it's a far more effective and efficient use of the costs.

204
00:33:00.130 --> 00:33:11.449
Shailaja Fennell: However, it will make a difference in terms of their contracting, because you will need new contractors who are willing to purchase in this way, so they will have to be shipped to the supply chain, but I will hand it over to Phil.

205
00:33:14.130 --> 00:33:22.010
Phil Howell: I'm not sure there's a huge amount I can add to that. It's it's all making a lot of sense. So as far as

206
00:33:22.320 --> 00:33:24.170
Phil Howell: most

207
00:33:24.460 --> 00:33:48.819
Phil Howell: most farmers concerned, certainly those producing the crops. What they are selling is the whole grains. It's the processor who then buys the whole grains and refines it or not, as the case may be. So so in terms of selling, selling the commodity, and I think commodity is a very interesting word, and that's commodity is the trap that I think a lot of these crops have fallen into so there is a great reluctance from

208
00:33:49.070 --> 00:34:17.249
Phil Howell: from the buyers of crops, often to even to try different varieties, because they may have to have a an enormous storage bin for one variety, and if another varieties different an enormous storage bin from those rather than having a mixture and when you, when you move from one crop to another again, you you need to keep those you need to keep those separate because of the way we've set up our manufacturing and and processing system. So so perhaps

209
00:34:17.250 --> 00:34:21.339
Phil Howell: wheat isn't the dirty word here, perhaps commodity is the dirty word.

210
00:34:23.730 --> 00:34:25.889
Nadia: Thanks, Bill and Shalaja.

211
00:34:25.940 --> 00:34:29.030
Nadia: We have another question from Andrew Forbes.

212
00:34:29.130 --> 00:34:39.969
Nadia: Should we not keep an open mind with the increase in celiac disease, onset, and other gluten intolerances, that there may have been some significant changes in wheat, green composition.

213
00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:43.750
possibly associated with the almost universal switch to

214
00:34:43.900 --> 00:34:46.109
Nadia: Hitchweev. Dwarfed wheat.

215
00:34:46.389 --> 00:35:10.429
Nadia: for instance, that the gluten in quality scoring system may have narrowed genetic diversity for gluten content, possibly introducing digestion problems. Possibly in conjunction with ultra processing and reduced fermentation fermentation times. So I think this is the fermentation part. Alex. Scientology already. Sort of mentioned about it, I guess. Yeah.

216
00:35:10.840 --> 00:35:16.170
Nadia: all, all, all 3, probably. Alexa.

217
00:35:17.110 --> 00:35:22.489
Phil Howell: shall shall I have a go first. So thank you, Andrew.

218
00:35:22.990 --> 00:35:33.520
Phil Howell: and we have spoken about this before. I know. So yes, that that gluten is not not all Gluten's are equal. So we know there are some subunits

219
00:35:33.520 --> 00:35:53.760
Phil Howell: within what we classify as gluten that do a particular job that's suited to some end uses of wheat. So so a week that we grow and sell as a biscuit making or cake making wheat will have a different form of gluten to to what's required for for bread making it differs in its elasticity differs in its strength.

220
00:35:53.780 --> 00:35:59.129
Phil Howell: It differs in the way the the dough behaves during your

221
00:35:59.330 --> 00:36:04.519
Phil Howell: your your baking process at home? So

222
00:36:04.630 --> 00:36:12.149
Phil Howell: we have self-selected. What types of gluten we want in our varieties.

223
00:36:12.260 --> 00:36:34.249
Phil Howell: because of the way they perform in in the processing situation. So it certainly seems that some of these slower fermentation types, like Sourdough seem to be a lot more agnostic about the the strength of the gluten, so they seem to be much more forgiving. The slower fermentation lets you get away with perhaps a different gluten type

224
00:36:34.250 --> 00:36:42.410
Phil Howell: to the very strong glute, new need for the mechanical fast. Charlie Woodbury, process. And there may well be

225
00:36:42.700 --> 00:36:47.669
Phil Howell: nutritional problems associated with that. There may well be intolerances.

226
00:36:47.750 --> 00:37:10.719
Phil Howell: It's certainly my understanding that the slower fermentation allows the the bacterial and the yeast natural enzymes to to break down the gluten into more digestible subunits. So yes, it's it's possibly a factor. There are certainly lots of different gluten subunits in some of these more diverse

227
00:37:10.830 --> 00:37:14.440
Phil Howell: that would be be worth investigating. Yeah.

228
00:37:18.860 --> 00:37:23.370
Shailaja Fennell: would you like me to go next? Okay,

229
00:37:23.510 --> 00:37:45.789
Shailaja Fennell: So II what I would like to to make the point is that there are also older fermentation techniques. And this is, I want to bring in the matter of community knowledge and the ideas. And I think Nadia mentioned this in her earlier comment. So the Ipcc in its 2021 and onwards, is talking about traditional systems to to be able to identify underutilized

230
00:37:45.790 --> 00:37:59.800
Shailaja Fennell: crops. But it's also about the process of eating them. And a lot of these fermentation techniques initially are to ensure the longevity of what it is that you are producing. So it's also about being waste

231
00:37:59.800 --> 00:38:21.839
Shailaja Fennell: reduction, and a lot of that is very helpful. So every part of every one of the plants. So whether it's the banana and everything, or, as we said, in terms of the wheat and the hay, and you know at that time the stalk would be fed to the animals, and the grain would be fed to the humans. But the fermentation processes are very important because it's about micronutrients as well

232
00:38:21.880 --> 00:38:29.930
Shailaja Fennell: mit Ctl, and so there's a connection between the fermenting and what you're eating. And here I'm talking about the economics of it and the knowledge of it in terms of recipe keeping.

233
00:38:29.930 --> 00:38:52.180
Shailaja Fennell: And I think one of the things that's really important. And you know, you could say, Oh, they're grandmas tales. They're really important because communities have heritage crops, but they also then have values for them. And the point that Phil is making about buckwheat reminded me of the Japanese system where they will pay for the first cold press, sesame, and the first buckwheat, and it will be then also propitiated for ancestors

234
00:38:52.180 --> 00:39:00.569
Shailaja Fennell: and those kind of slow food movements like you have in Italy, and and these are the 2 countries, not surprisingly with the longest longevity, and it has to do with

235
00:39:00.570 --> 00:39:22.360
Shailaja Fennell: how you eat and what it has to do in terms of the cultural aspect. So it is true, for just going for food, as in calories and and and the point about commodities I made early. I think we're missing a whole part of that human, non-human, natural relationship in which food is about nutrition. So eat less and eat. Smarter is the version that would be helpful.

236
00:39:22.420 --> 00:39:24.519
Shailaja Fennell: Thank you, Alex. Over to you.

237
00:39:30.280 --> 00:39:32.149
Nadia: Alexa. Do you want to add.

238
00:39:32.170 --> 00:39:34.870
Alexa Bellows: I think everyone who

239
00:39:35.410 --> 00:39:36.460
oh, sorry.

240
00:39:36.570 --> 00:39:45.989
Nadia: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, oh, it's about to come in like, do you want to add anything to? Yeah to the discussion on that blood inside of the atmosphere?

241
00:39:46.490 --> 00:39:52.859
Alexa Bellows: II think everyone has said everything I was going to say. So I I don't think I have anything more to add.

242
00:39:53.240 --> 00:39:55.600
Nadia: but I agree with everything that's been said.

243
00:39:56.330 --> 00:40:05.519
Nadia: Right? Thanks, Alexa, intelligent. And and Phil, I have a question for Martin, especially on the historical side of things of serials.

244
00:40:05.690 --> 00:40:08.389
Nadia: So how important is it

245
00:40:08.480 --> 00:40:24.460
Nadia: wheat historically, in the context of human human civilization? And what are the characteristics, characteristics of wheat that are responsible for its importance in human history. And are these characteristics also present in other cereal crops that

246
00:40:24.630 --> 00:40:31.810
Nadia: you know in I guess in another world. Kind of could it? Could

247
00:40:32.240 --> 00:40:39.159
Nadia: could it be that another cereal can replace wheat historically at 1 point of time? Perhaps

248
00:40:39.830 --> 00:40:43.080
Martin Jones: what I would say is the great thing

249
00:40:43.790 --> 00:40:54.140
Martin Jones: about wheat? And that in terms of human civilization is, I is, I think, of, which is like a loose balloon. If you can

250
00:40:54.480 --> 00:41:02.560
Martin Jones: pump it with nutrients and water, you get a really big balloon and and other plants don't

251
00:41:02.630 --> 00:41:16.150
Martin Jones: don't work like that. So I mean to be slightly slightly provocative. It's it's it's it's the perfect plant for a capitalist world, for for a marketary market world where

252
00:41:16.340 --> 00:41:18.839
Martin Jones: where you want to make profit

253
00:41:19.320 --> 00:41:30.960
Martin Jones: from crop production and and Big 4 is a, you know, a little bit like a loose balloon. I apologize for these not very scientific analogies.

254
00:41:31.080 --> 00:41:44.570
Martin Jones: And that's if, if, if if productivity of calories, I do stress calories, as also as we know when you blow up that that balloon you, you blow up the starchy end of sperm or something. You don't enlarge

255
00:41:44.720 --> 00:41:49.860
Martin Jones: all the other goodies that are in the embryo and so forth. So you reduce the

256
00:41:49.940 --> 00:41:55.380
Martin Jones: the mutual quality of them. So if if what you're after. Is

257
00:41:55.550 --> 00:42:16.370
Martin Jones: maximizing on calories per hectare. Then it's it's it's a it's an it's an ideal thing, and that's why it's been so important in the last 1,500 years and the growth of that system. And and you know I mean within that system. And so I don't think it's it. When we look to the future, I think the 2 things

258
00:42:16.700 --> 00:42:30.820
Martin Jones: we we need to think about is on the one you know what is possible. Now, that wasn't, as we said earlier, 25 years ago, but also what are the the needs? I'm actually kind of anticipating a question that's coming up that that?

259
00:42:31.170 --> 00:42:41.529
Martin Jones: When we talk about global food security. are we talking about making a profit for crop production? Or are we talking about feeding the hungry.

260
00:42:42.240 --> 00:42:47.929
Martin Jones: and if we're talking about feeding the hungry, we've got to work out who the hungry are, where they are in the world.

261
00:42:48.320 --> 00:42:56.090
Martin Jones: Have you know what options they have, you know, and what markets, or what interaction

262
00:42:57.090 --> 00:42:58.390
Martin Jones: I'm page with.

263
00:42:58.570 --> 00:43:03.869
Martin Jones: and and what and what so plants, and

264
00:43:04.110 --> 00:43:09.400
Martin Jones: suit their needs best. and so I think I think

265
00:43:10.410 --> 00:43:13.290
Martin Jones: wheat has served a particular

266
00:43:14.300 --> 00:43:22.130
Martin Jones: world system well, and it may be as we look to the future. We want to look at things in a different way. I don't know if that answers the question.

267
00:43:23.430 --> 00:43:45.250
Nadia: Thanks, Martin. That's yeah. That's interesting way to to see weeds like a a balloon that you just pump things, and then it just produce more and more and more. But what kind of will that are we actually envisioning for the future. Is it just like this, stripping the environment to the point that there's no return right? And then producing more and more and left?

268
00:43:45.330 --> 00:43:47.999
Nadia: They're the part of the world not having a vote.

269
00:43:48.230 --> 00:43:52.879
Nadia: So I think we can put together. I think we're working towards it. Yes.

270
00:43:53.070 --> 00:43:55.070
Nadia: no. Sorry, Martin. Yeah.

271
00:43:55.100 --> 00:44:02.400
Martin Jones: Say there isn't, there isn't a single answer. That's why I'm not saying we had either. Yeah, I think I think we're working towards. I mean

272
00:44:03.260 --> 00:44:11.300
Martin Jones: an answer where there's many aspects to it, and different constituents and different communities have different needs and work better.

273
00:44:11.380 --> 00:44:15.030
Nadia: Yep, that needs to be yup exactly.

274
00:44:15.140 --> 00:44:24.250
Nadia: There's another question, on the chat on the Q&A box in the current wheat supply. Do we consider, or how

275
00:44:24.290 --> 00:44:42.069
Nadia: can we consider the impact of the food system, farming to milling, to baking on the nutritional value in terms of micronutrients of wheat and products. Aside from fibre bread, contributes to the micronutrient intake of the population. How can maximize or utilize wheat as source of micronutrients

276
00:44:42.280 --> 00:44:43.830
Nadia: think?

277
00:44:44.230 --> 00:44:48.439
Nadia: this could be till Alexa or shall I do?

278
00:44:48.840 --> 00:44:51.649
Nadia: Yeah, yeah. Yep.

279
00:44:52.270 --> 00:44:58.879
Alexa Bellows: I think I can try going first. So there's the project that we've been working on with

280
00:44:58.950 --> 00:45:10.019
Alexa Bellows: a group called Scotland. The bread and they are growing wheat populations up here in Scotland, and they're really interested in producing the most nutritious bread possible

281
00:45:10.070 --> 00:45:12.799
Alexa Bellows: with their wheat populations.

282
00:45:12.920 --> 00:45:15.739
Alexa Bellows: and we had some small funding

283
00:45:16.240 --> 00:45:31.399
Alexa Bellows: to do, some testing of the nutritional components of the wheat and comparing them to other wheat pop. Wheat types as well, and they did have some higher levels of micronutrients.

284
00:45:31.440 --> 00:45:36.280
Alexa Bellows: Then they. you know, standard wheat that you would

285
00:45:36.520 --> 00:45:41.870
Alexa Bellows: typically see in an industrial bread. So there is some evidence of that. But I think the evidence.

286
00:45:42.400 --> 00:45:48.089
Alexa Bellows: Still, we don't have a lot of data on this. I think that there's a lot of people who think that

287
00:45:48.360 --> 00:45:50.830
we would see an increase in.

288
00:45:50.950 --> 00:45:54.759
Alexa Bellows: People consuming more micronutrients. If we were consuming

289
00:45:55.600 --> 00:46:05.600
Alexa Bellows: more diverse. Types of grains, and I think that would be probably very true. But I don't. I think there's still more research is needed in this area as well.

290
00:46:05.760 --> 00:46:13.379
Nadia: Right? So that's interesting. There is. There is a type of fee that actually has high micronutrients available?

291
00:46:13.560 --> 00:46:36.490
Nadia: the next question is, so change is required on many levels. But we need to still feed the planet. Where does the impetus for change need to come from government breeders, growers, or consumers. And I think this follow ups with question that I asked Martin. So where would it come from. Maybe

292
00:46:36.870 --> 00:46:40.440
Shailaja Fennell: I'll try. Okay, so

293
00:46:40.510 --> 00:47:01.269
Shailaja Fennell: So when we talk about food, security, food, sovereignty from the social sciences, these are all very different terms. For farmers who are facing risky markets. They usually want seed security, particularly in poor countries, because they want to complete the economic cycle. And so when they're moving to high-e varieties or Gmos. They need an assured

294
00:47:01.430 --> 00:47:08.809
Shailaja Fennell: assurance that they will be able to purchase the seeds, which means that they will have enough money to do that. and sometimes you have, therefore.

295
00:47:09.030 --> 00:47:18.119
Shailaja Fennell: collective crop insurance schemes that allows them to bind to 3 or 5 years so that they can do that, and that works well for a farmer community that has assets.

296
00:47:18.340 --> 00:47:37.060
Shailaja Fennell: Often the mismatch is when a program is trying to be scaling up very quickly. So all farmers, be they small or big, or cannot absorb risk as much as others get put into a program, and then you will have fall away because certain groups are not as well placed, some of it simply scale.

297
00:47:37.140 --> 00:48:02.040
Shailaja Fennell: But it can be as you said, Nadia, early on in relation to climate crisis. So there are places which are more directly affected, so they have a greater cyclicality of seasonal change than before, and they should not be areas where you introduce new crops. So we have to reconsider what the new technologies are going to be able to deliver in the light of that kind of increasing instability. That's the first.

298
00:48:02.430 --> 00:48:05.539
Shailaja Fennell: The second is the thing that's missing. Here is civil society.

299
00:48:05.870 --> 00:48:17.849
Shailaja Fennell: Farmers are not often brought in one of the things that's really interesting. Robert Chambers said this in the 60 s. When he I mean, he's now in his 90 s. Really, you know, fundamental thinking and changing in development. Beat the Nfu in England

300
00:48:17.880 --> 00:48:23.440
Shailaja Fennell: or farmers associations elsewhere. They don't often get a chance to talk to power.

301
00:48:23.510 --> 00:48:34.480
Shailaja Fennell: So he said the same thing about then, if you you got a National Farmers Union, but they don't come to the table, and governments making policies. They come through another organization. So he wrote a book called Who's

302
00:48:34.550 --> 00:48:36.170
Shailaja Fennell: Reality comes first.

303
00:48:36.300 --> 00:48:44.390
Shailaja Fennell: And the same narrative applies for the global South. So we're talking breeders. We're talking growers. Where are the farmers? They're the people producing the food

304
00:48:44.410 --> 00:48:57.499
Shailaja Fennell: that needs to be part of the conversation, because only they feel that they can take on board the changes. It doesn't have to be new tech. It can simply be the point about diversification. If you've got a new crop

305
00:48:57.840 --> 00:49:25.069
Shailaja Fennell: choice, you have to have a new set of metrics and measures. It is not a magic wand. It requires the same amount of work as extension farms did in the 40 s. And 50 s. When we brought new agriculture. So it's a process that builds trust. That takes time. The difficulty is a lot of these programs want to work in 5 or 10 year cycles which does not work with how farming and farm systems work. I'll keep quiet. Pass it on to Phil.

306
00:49:27.310 --> 00:49:29.930
Nadia: Bill. Do you want to add to that?

307
00:49:30.180 --> 00:49:33.710
Phil Howell: I would I we see neat

308
00:49:34.130 --> 00:49:36.730
Phil Howell: change all the way up. So

309
00:49:37.920 --> 00:49:39.270
Phil Howell: consumers

310
00:49:40.530 --> 00:49:54.739
Phil Howell: mean need to be more open to to different types, but equally the people pushing the options at the consumers, in the first place, need to be open to to more different types as well. So and

311
00:49:55.720 --> 00:50:19.179
Phil Howell: 3 days will often if the goal posts move in the testing system or the evaluation system, they will let you know it's in their interest to to keep producing winners so they will shift their selection to to meet whatever the new, the new goalposts are. But often it's it's governments that set those goal posts. It's governments. So it's it's the buyers of the crops that that set those goal posts. So so

312
00:50:20.290 --> 00:50:29.090
Phil Howell: I think I'm saying that the whole system has to be open to change for the system to be able to change otherwise. It'll hit a block somewhere, and and nothing will change.

313
00:50:30.650 --> 00:50:32.400
Nadia: Thanks. Felon, Charlie Jo.

314
00:50:32.410 --> 00:50:49.089
Nadia: I think we own coming to an end. So before we end our session, like, till us, each of our panelists, to give a final statement or message to the audience on the topic that we just discussed.

315
00:50:50.580 --> 00:50:53.429
Nadia: Martin, do you want to go best?

316
00:50:53.960 --> 00:50:56.739
Martin Jones: Yeah, I mean one of the things about

317
00:50:57.080 --> 00:51:01.440
Martin Jones: we've talked about? We've all said that wheat is is

318
00:51:01.900 --> 00:51:03.740
Martin Jones: is has

319
00:51:03.950 --> 00:51:05.640
Martin Jones: serious advantages.

320
00:51:05.650 --> 00:51:20.480
Martin Jones: But we've also pointed towards diversity. And I think we're the good news is we're much. We're much more able now scientifically to embark on an unknown crop

321
00:51:21.230 --> 00:51:24.140
Martin Jones: that we were just a generation ago.

322
00:51:24.380 --> 00:51:25.910
Martin Jones: and

323
00:51:26.030 --> 00:51:31.110
Martin Jones: Although the last 1,500 years has seen a great

324
00:51:31.400 --> 00:51:32.760
shrinking down.

325
00:51:32.880 --> 00:51:38.079
Martin Jones: So, as I say, a small number of plants accounting for the the most of the food chain.

326
00:51:38.620 --> 00:51:41.949
Martin Jones: Human history has shown a phenomenal

327
00:51:42.810 --> 00:51:45.580
Martin Jones: diversification of use, of

328
00:51:46.670 --> 00:51:59.970
Martin Jones: of many tens of thousands of different plants, and to great extent the advantages of our progress is, we can now explore diversity. In a different way. So although we we don't want to

329
00:51:59.990 --> 00:52:19.999
Martin Jones: put down wheat, it's it's a plant that serves purpose. We have the option of looking at other crops in a way. That we haven't in the past, and the only right is that, as I say, I think a key question is not how you can make a profit from plant, but how you can feed the hungry in the world, and that that is something I think we need to have in mind. Thank you.

330
00:52:20.380 --> 00:52:21.300
Set up there.

331
00:52:23.010 --> 00:52:25.280
Nadia: Thanks. Wanting.

332
00:52:25.320 --> 00:52:28.630
Nadia: Alex, so, Charlotte, yeah, do you wanna go next?

333
00:52:29.260 --> 00:52:35.780
Shailaja Fennell: Oh, sorry. I thought we were going the same order as last time. Yeah, yeah, sure. So Phil could go because I was

334
00:52:36.860 --> 00:52:37.680
Nadia: yeah.

335
00:52:38.550 --> 00:53:01.879
Phil Howell: What's what to say that I haven't said already. I feel like I've said an awful lot already. Ii think. Yes, we we I would keep going back to this diversification. So as well as broadening the genetic base of the of the crops that we're working on, bringing in new diversity from

336
00:53:01.920 --> 00:53:28.919
Phil Howell: from different sources, including the close relatives. So we do a lot of work with the close, close relatives of wheat, which often come from extreme climates and bring some some really interesting adaptations to to some of those stresses. So they'll be really useful for for helping to deal with climate change. We need to be open to different ways of of growing the crop. So I see there's there's another question we didn't have time to answer about.

337
00:53:28.920 --> 00:53:47.699
Phil Howell: How can we increase the grain protein and reduce fertilizer. Well, perhaps we could be open to things like intercropping, which used to happen in the past. You put more than one crop in the field. You have a legume that turns atmospheric nitrogen into nitrate in the in the ground, and then the cereal crop takes up that nitrate. You don't need as much cereal.

338
00:53:47.980 --> 00:53:58.140
Phil Howell: and and you harvest the the 2 crops together and and separate them out if you need to, or or keep them as a mixture. And these these sorts of things are

339
00:53:58.810 --> 00:54:12.799
Phil Howell: lessons that we learned in the past and forgot about, and we need to be open to to remembering those and not just living in in the past, of kind of sepia tones and aspect, but but combining the lessons we learned from

340
00:54:12.930 --> 00:54:29.810
Phil Howell: the olden days with with the opportunities and the science, the approach that that we have. Now, I think there's a way to bring the 2 together and really move forward. And finally, yes, we need to be much more open to a whole range of of different food ingredients and food types. As we move forward.

341
00:54:30.170 --> 00:54:32.430
Phil Howell: And now I'm definitely gonna stop talking.

342
00:54:33.120 --> 00:54:57.120
Shailaja Fennell: Thank you. So I, too, would like to echo diversity. But both diversity in terms of diverse knowledge systems, recognizing there is still quite a lot of tacit knowledge in how to cultivate, how to store, particularly in the context of climate crisis and logistics of cold chains. Any system that allows us to do it with a lower level of either

343
00:54:57.120 --> 00:55:22.109
Shailaja Fennell: energy use or more cyclical and recyclable systems would be very helpful. So terracotta jars is a far more effective way of cooling water, keeping sealing it. We've done this with honey, with other fluids. We can think about this across the globe. So one is managing it, and that's really important for the seed. Security for heritage varieties as well as managing, and

344
00:55:22.110 --> 00:55:49.310
Shailaja Fennell: elsewhere farmers have to be able to exchange. Farmers are most successful in crop choice by learning, by the demonstration effect they will travel distances, see, they will bring the seeds back. They will invite the other farmer communities. It can also be done for heritage varieties, and I'd like to add to that the consumption side, and that is the collection of

345
00:55:49.420 --> 00:56:15.660
Shailaja Fennell: dietary recipes which include the techniques. And we did that before Covid on the Tigris project we actually took recordings on phones our teams did in terms of how Ingiro is fermented in different parts of Ethiopia. They're different techniques now, we couldn't do further testing. But is it because they're in different places? Is it different sorghums. Is it the taste? We need to learn so much more if we have to integrate the food system so diversity? But on the human

346
00:56:15.680 --> 00:56:24.310
Shailaja Fennell: site and diversity understanding. The same crop can have different roles even in a regional context over to you, Alex.

347
00:56:27.020 --> 00:56:39.189
Alexa Bellows: Thank you so much. II really echo what everyone has said again, we've talked about Diversity a lot, and I'll say again, diversity is one of the best things that you can do when thinking about your diet. But I also think that

348
00:56:39.320 --> 00:56:41.659
Alexa Bellows: bread has been very demonized in

349
00:56:42.260 --> 00:56:51.590
Alexa Bellows: the recent like couple of decades. And it's because we're consuming bad bread and thinking about how we can

350
00:56:51.620 --> 00:56:57.329
Alexa Bellows: consume better bread. and also thinking about how we can make that bread accessible.

351
00:56:57.450 --> 00:57:04.299
Alexa Bellows: particular to everyone in the population. So really good bread, I think, is very expensive still.

352
00:57:04.520 --> 00:57:17.610
Alexa Bellows: particularly if you go to your local bakery and you get an artisan loaf. That's whole meal, Sourdough fermented. It's going to cost a lot more than what a lot of people can afford, particularly in this cost of living crisis that we're in.

353
00:57:17.790 --> 00:57:22.540
Alexa Bellows: And so thinking about policies that would also make these

354
00:57:22.720 --> 00:57:25.860
Alexa Bellows: types of bread or novel

355
00:57:25.900 --> 00:57:36.100
Alexa Bellows: breads that incorporate different ingredients more accessible to everyone is something that I think we should call on for our governments. And one of the ways is through

356
00:57:36.460 --> 00:57:41.620
Alexa Bellows: public procurement policies thinking about, you know, how can we

357
00:57:42.360 --> 00:57:47.390
Alexa Bellows: make this more accessible to everyone. So I think that's where I'll leave it.

358
00:57:48.780 --> 00:58:18.009
Nadia: Thank you all. Thank you to all of our panelists for today. So just to sum up almost running out of time. So clearly there is something wrong with, but it is a very complex system, and so partly how we can actually improve our food system is, we should consider diversification of our cereals, improving our supply chain

359
00:58:18.050 --> 00:58:26.370
Nadia: and reutilizing traditional knowledge. That we have to have a better and healthier system, and hopefully better cereals, too.

360
00:58:26.510 --> 00:58:28.430
So

361
00:58:28.570 --> 00:58:50.080
Nadia: Sorry that there are a couple of Q&A questions that we have been able to answer. Please feel free to email, Francesca, fr. 22, 2, 2, 4@cam.ec.uk for your question to be answered. And with that. Thank you so much for everyone attending our webinar today.

362
00:58:50.080 --> 00:58:59.149
Nadia: and if you like to add, be added to our mailing list and receive information on the future. Events please contact Francesco, reminding, too.

363
00:58:59.350 --> 00:59:00.980
Nadia: and have a good evening.